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GrayEagle

USA
9966 Posts

Posted - 10/13/2006 :  4:34:04 PM  Show Profile  Visit GrayEagle's Homepage  Reply with Quote
This is almost to strange to believe:TWO FEET OF SNOW!

Just think what it might have been without all the global warming going on!


GrayEagle
<:))))<><
Favorite Sites:
www.anoteaboutmyself.com
www.bcmintl.org
Thoughts:
(paraphrased from a sign in our office)
"Everyone brings joy to this site. Some when they come in. Others when they leave."

AlphaDraconis

USA
179 Posts

Posted - 10/13/2006 :  4:46:38 PM  Show Profile  Visit AlphaDraconis's Homepage  Reply with Quote
The problem is scientists named "global warming" back before it was a politicized concept. Had they hired a marketing team, they probably would have named it "Global Catastrophic Climate Change" - because that's more reflective of what actually happens to regional climates as the global temperatures gradually increase.

But now we're stuck with people not believing in a real problem because of its name, even though two feet of snow in Buffalo, and multiple decades of low rainfall in the south east are both expected under the "global warming" model.

Critics of global warming who say "warming! ha, it still snows" are like Latin American car shoppers who wouldn't buy a Chevy Nova because "Nova" in Spanish means "No go". They've bought into the bad marketing, and didn't actually look under the hood.

Edited by - AlphaDraconis on 10/13/2006 4:47:42 PMGo to Top of Page

GrayEagle

USA
9966 Posts

Posted - 10/13/2006 :  6:33:39 PM  Show Profile  Visit GrayEagle's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I can understand the feelings of some folks who look at the current events and say there is a catastrophe in the making. I continue to believe that we are going through a rather normal heating/cooling cycle. Sure the weather may be getting warmer for now, but it was also true during the Dust Bowl period of the 1930's. How about the "year without a summer" of 1816. Neither of those periods prove that there was a major change in the climate. BTW, before someone says something, the "year without a summer" was cause by volcanic ash from an eruption in the Dutch East Indies (in today's Indonesia).

Someone who has studied weather all of his adult life does not believe the myth of "Global Warming". He believes that this is part of a continuing weather cycle that has been going on since the beginning of time. This fellow should know what he is talking about. I know that when he starts putting his hurricane shutters on his house, the entire neighborhood does likewise. He is the director of the National Hurricane Center here in Miami.

Are the winters warmer now than when I was growing up? (late 40's, early 50's) Yes, they are. Is is a result of "Global Warming"? Could be. But it could be also, that we were closer to the bottom of the warm/cold cycle than we are now.

Perhaps the "Global Warmers" did hire some sort of marketing team to market their doom and gloom forcasts.

I have a feeling that nothing I say will change your mind and others who think the same way. But then, nothing anyone has said or showed me has made me change mine one iota.

GrayEagle
<:))))<><
Favorite Sites:
www.anoteaboutmyself.com
www.bcmintl.org
Thoughts:
(paraphrased from a sign in our office)
"Everyone brings joy to this site. Some when they come in. Others when they leave."Go to Top of Page

AlphaDraconis

USA
179 Posts

Posted - 10/13/2006 :  6:36:52 PM  Show Profile  Visit AlphaDraconis's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:

I have a feeling that nothing I say will change your mind and others who think the same way. But then, nothing anyone has said or showed me has made me change mine one iota.

The saddest thing is, how do you answer the question:

But what if I'm wrong; what harm have I caused?

Edited by - AlphaDraconis on 10/13/2006 6:37:36 PMGo to Top of Page

GrayEagle

USA
9966 Posts

Posted - 10/13/2006 :  7:23:29 PM  Show Profile  Visit GrayEagle's Homepage  Reply with Quote
But what harm may be caused because of the fear and false claims?

Two rhetorical questions, with nothing but speculative answers.

GrayEagle
<:))))<><
Favorite Sites:
www.anoteaboutmyself.com
www.bcmintl.org
Thoughts:
(paraphrased from a sign in our office)
"Everyone brings joy to this site. Some when they come in. Others when they leave."Go to Top of Page

Wildflower

USA
4528 Posts

Posted - 10/13/2006 :  9:14:32 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
But the director of the hurricane center is only one person, and many scientists think the opposite. There is more than one study to support that global warming is happening

I have seen the director say this before, but I am not convinced he isn't a mouthpiece for the current administration in Washington. Since 2004, his group has been required to clear any statements they make about hurricanes with the administration. And he was appointed by the Bush administration.

Look at this: http://www.climatesciencewatch.org/index.php/csw/details/earthbeat-interview/

My view is that this has split along partisan political lines. The Republicans listen to certain news programs and read certain publications that say there is not global warming.

The other side hears otherwise.

The Republicans don't want to admit global warming because it might cost business profits.

But science is science, and it takes no notice of politics.

Here is a link to an article explaining the lack of accurate news coverage on the complex science of global warming and why that is.

http://www.csicop.org/scienceandmedia/hurricanes/

The bottom line for me is that more scientists and scientific organizations think global warming is real. How do you discount that? Or a better question is . . . how do you decide who to listen to, and who to discount?

Wildflower

Sometimes I get the feeling the whole world is against me.
But deep down, I know that's not true.
Some of the smaller countries are neutral.
~Robert Orben
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Wildflower

USA
4528 Posts

Posted - 10/13/2006 :  9:19:15 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:

But what harm may be caused because of the fear and false claims?

Two rhetorical questions, with nothing but speculative answers.

GrayEagle
<:))))<><
Favorite Sites:
www.anoteaboutmyself.com
www.bcmintl.org
Thoughts:
(paraphrased from a sign in our office)
"Everyone brings joy to this site. Some when they come in. Others when they leave."


If global warming is real, then we had better move to control what we can (emissions) and decide guidelines about building in coastal areas. Otherwise the damage and lives lost will be horrible.

If global warming is not real, how will doing those things hurt us?

Seems we have far more to lose if it's real, than we do if it's not.

Property damage and lives lost is as bad as it gets.


Wildflower

Sometimes I get the feeling the whole world is against me.
But deep down, I know that's not true.
Some of the smaller countries are neutral.
~Robert Orben
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GrayEagle

USA
9966 Posts

Posted - 10/13/2006 :  10:18:07 PM  Show Profile  Visit GrayEagle's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Some non-global warming links.

http://www.skepticism.net/faq/environment/global_warming/index.html
http://www.globalwarming.org/

So there is "data" to support both sides. Personally, I believe that God is in control, first, last, and always.

GrayEagle
<:))))<><
Favorite Sites:
www.anoteaboutmyself.com
www.bcmintl.org
Thoughts:
(paraphrased from a sign in our office)
"Everyone brings joy to this site. Some when they come in. Others when they leave."Go to Top of Page

AlphaDraconis

USA
179 Posts

Posted - 10/13/2006 :  11:54:50 PM  Show Profile  Visit AlphaDraconis's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:

But what harm may be caused because of the fear and false claims?

Two rhetorical questions, with nothing but speculative answers.


My question wasn't rhetorical. I'm well aware of the risks of trying to support environmentally positive efforts - from higher costs of merchandise, to decreased distribution of capital through industrial investors, higher housing costs in environmentally fragile environments, fewer jobs, and the list goes on. I know the harm done to society if I'm wrong in believing that humans have the technology and power to affect the global climate, and are doing so today.

But have you honestly thought about the harm you can cause by believing otherwise? The increases in asthma in metropolitan areas, the loss of worldwide biodiversity, the conversion of scenery to industry, the conversion of the farms of the South East to arrid grasslands and the north to a temperate rainforest? What if your wrong, and this is caused by human act? Are you still happy with the priorities you've chosen? Is it more Christian to support shareholders of industry than clean air?

Unless your a Calvinist, I don't see how people don't have the responsibility to take care of the home we were given, and do so knowing the costs and harms of any decision they make. And if you are a fan of predestination, why are you trying to convince others that they're wrong?

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GrayEagle

USA
9966 Posts

Posted - 10/14/2006 :  11:48:56 AM  Show Profile  Visit GrayEagle's Homepage  Reply with Quote
While I do not adhear to the Global Warming doom and gloom predictions, I do feel that we need to find other sources of fuel other than oil, that we need to help preserve the Rain Forest (but I am not a "tree hugger either), we need to preserve our fresh water (at the same time looking at desalinization) and such. I also believe that we need to use more renewal power sources for our electricity AND need to increase the use of nuclear power generation. Oil and Coal are finite.

Perhaps I would call myself a Common-Sense Conservationist. I also believe that God made this planet in such a way that over time it goes through cycles, just like we do.

GrayEagle
<:))))<><
Favorite Sites:
www.anoteaboutmyself.com
www.bcmintl.org
Thoughts:
(paraphrased from a sign in our office)
"Everyone brings joy to this site. Some when they come in. Others when they leave."Go to Top of Page

Wildflower

USA
4528 Posts

Posted - 10/14/2006 :  11:45:05 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Gray,

My personal belief is that God expects us to do the best we can with the information we have. I believe that he expects us to take care of this planet.

If science shows that we need to do things differently, in order to preserve what God has given us, then we need to do that.

Our way of life is very different than past generations, and I think that's why our impact on the planet is increasing.

God may be in charge, but he did give us free will to do good or bad (see, that's my Baptist upbringing coming out) and I think a lot of people are going to have to answer to God why they didn't take responsibility.

If we want to change the climate, or pollute the planet, God is not going to stop us.

Free will.

Wildflower

Sometimes I get the feeling the whole world is against me.
But deep down, I know that's not true.
Some of the smaller countries are neutral.
~Robert Orben
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GrayEagle

USA
9966 Posts

Posted - 10/15/2006 :  08:49:11 AM  Show Profile  Visit GrayEagle's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Of course we are impacting the environment more that we did in the past! There are more humans on this earth than before! Should we turn back the clock to older time? Should we limit the growth of the human race like China does?

Again, I point you to what I said above. Common Sense rather than radical shoot from the hip, the sky is falling reaction.

BTW, I was wondering how well you know the current director of the NHC? Do you know anything about him other than what you see and read in the public forum?

The reason I ask, is that I know Max Mayfield...personally. I know his family, I know where he goes to church and where he went to church before the current chuch they are attending. His son and our son were friends (not close...but friends nevertheless). I know that he is a Christian (So. Baptist demonation). I would put my faith in what he has to say about this topic way before I even consider the thoughts from someone that I don't know!

But that is enough. Again, you won't convince me to watch out for the sky to fall and I won't convince you that the sky isn't falling. However, perhaps we can agree to disagree!

GrayEagle
<:))))<><
Favorite Sites:
www.anoteaboutmyself.com
www.bcmintl.org
Thoughts:
(paraphrased from a sign in our office)
"Everyone brings joy to this site. Some when they come in. Others when they leave."Go to Top of Page

Wildflower

USA
4528 Posts

Posted - 10/15/2006 :  2:57:33 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Gray,

You and I almost always have to agree to disagree. Heck, nowadays, I have to agree to disagree with my own mother.

No, I don't know Mayfield personally, but I do know a couple of experts in their fields personally - one has been employed in the lumber industry his whole life. He has told me that Bush has rolled back years of environmental regulation since he became president.

You can imagine that this guy is certainly not against lumbering, because it's his career, but he knows the right way and the wrong way. I don't think of him as an alarmist who is against using trees.

What I see going on, is an unholy alliance between the Bush administration, big business, and the religious right.

It didn't take reading other's opinions for me to see it. Baptists themselves have fundamentally changed since I was growing up. I am not a Baptist for other reasons, but regardless of why I left, I do feel that they have changed. I see the change in my own mother, who has always been a soft-hearted person.

She is still a good person in her personal life. And she is not stupid, but she doesn't question things as much as I do. Nowadays, because she follows the party line, I hear things coming out of her mouth that make me not recognize her anymore. And her political views follow, so she supports things that she never would have before.

Some said it best recently, when they pointed out that Baptist churches used to sing . . .

Gonna lay down my sword and shield
Down by the riverside
Down by the riverside
Down by the riverside
Gonna lay down my sword and shield
Down by the riverside
Ain't gonna study war no more.

refrain

I ain't gonna study war no more,
I ain't gonna study war no more,
Study war no more.
I ain't gonna study war no more,
I ain't gonna study war no more,
Study war no more.

Gonna stick my sword in the golden sand;
Down By the riverside
Down by the riverside
Down by the riverside
Gonna stick my sword in the golden sand
Down by the riverside
Gonna study war no more.

refrain

Gonna put on my long white robe;
Down By the riverside
Down by the riverside
Down by the riverside
Gonna put on my long white robe; Down by the riverside
Gonna study war no more.

refrain

Gonna put on my starry crown; Down By the riverside
Down by the riverside
Down by the riverside
Gonna put on my starry crown;
Down by the riverside
Gonna study war no more.

refrain

Gonna put on my golden shoes;
(ETC)
Gonna talk with the Prince of Peace;
(ETC)
Gonna shake hands around the world;

Now, so many support the Iraq war. For me, Gray, it's a real disappointment. Just being honest.

One group that I like, is one started by a christian named Jim Wallis. Before Bush got into office, he asked Wallis to put together a group of clergymen because he wanted to hear their thoughts. Bush used to take advice from him, until he didn't like what Wallis had to say. Wallis has a group now called Soujourners, and they are Christians who take a different view.

Their website is: www.sojo.net/

Anyhoo, no surprise that you and I don't agree. I don't even agree with my own mother, who is a person I LOVE!!!

Wildflower

Sometimes I get the feeling the whole world is against me.
But deep down, I know that's not true.
Some of the smaller countries are neutral.
~Robert Orben
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