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 School Board wants student drug-testing w/o cause
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MountainThinker

USA
24 Posts

Posted - 03/03/2006 :  01:01:24 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If you haven't read the Union Sentinel this week, you all need to. The front-page story, "Unique drug testing program introduced", is a gently written story that glosses over a recommendation by Superintendent Tommy Stephens to institute mandatory drug testing for most high-school students without probable cause. The 'plan' is to have on-site drug testing of every student that drives to school, as well as student athletes. Furthermore, the first instance, according to the article, would not lead to parental notification! Only after the second incident would parents be called in. There would also be no suspension from school nor law enforcement called in. (I swear I am not making this up! Check the newspaper! They quote Tommy Stephens personally...)

My problems (plural) with this are as follows:

A: It is unconstitutional, both according to the US Constitution and the Georgia Constitution. (I should be able to stop here, but unfortunately most don't care/understand this.)

B: It discriminates against those who drive to school (including joint-enrolled students who also attend Young Harris College/North GA Tech and those that work) vs. those that do not. Also, 18-year-olds could not be subject to the search, as they are not minors, and therefore would have to legally consent as individuals.

C: It is to be done 'on-site", in other words in-house. So the we the taxpayers will be paying for all these drug tests....what will this cost and who will ensure it is a qualified and independent professional?

D: This will open the school system to lawsuits based on Supreme Court precedent that will cost taxpayers hundreds of thousands of $$$ and which the Board WILL lose.

E: School employees (outside of bus drivers) and faculty are NOT nor are they going to be required to undergo mandatory drug testing. I don't approve of double standards. I wish I could say the same for our board...

F: Parental involvement should be #1 if a student is involved with drugs, and I think it sends a very bad message to kids that the school system is more important than parents and that drugs are not criminal but are a social problem that needs ONLY counseling.

G: It subjects otherwise innocent and successful students to an invasion of privacy of the highest order without the slightest notion of legitimate suspicion. It is the very real implementation of a separate justice; guilty until proven innocent.

I have absolutely no objection to search and seizure of a convicted criminal who is serving out his/her sentence or someone under legitimate suspicion. I take ENORMOUS exception to innocent people being subject to illegal and unnecessary search and seizure. I pray I am not the only one!

Perhaps if our Superintendent and School Board members had been taught civics and history by a teacher who wasn't a basketball coach by training, they would know better...

Non nobis Domine, non nobis, sed nomini Tuo da gloriam.

daughterofconfederate

USA
29728 Posts

Posted - 03/03/2006 :  01:08:52 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I think its a great thing myself. I think they should do it to people who get welfare too. Yes, I surely do. Hit me hard for those against it.

Where there is hatred, let me sow love. Where there is injury, pardon. Where there is doubt, faith.

Saint Francis of Assisi
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Cherry Blossom

USA
18932 Posts

Posted - 03/03/2006 :  07:37:09 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I don't have a problem with it. Better catch them now than later, than we can help them that much sooner.

It also may stop them from passing it on to my child.

No problem on my part.

Cherry Blossom
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Social change

USA
274 Posts

Posted - 03/03/2006 :  08:15:21 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Mountain Thinker, you are right on the money. There is no way you can do this without probable cause, an arrest and miranda rights. This program, while probably well intentioned, is someones pipe dream and l can see the ACLU now, salivating over this one. They will absolutely crucify any school system that inaugurates this program abd lawyers will be lined up 10 deep to file lawsuits. There is not enough money in the school system to pay for these verdicts.

l do not approve of drugs in any shape,form or type. However, drug education begins at home, not in school, just like religion, but that is another topic.

Just my thoughts

Social change


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CaseyDoodleBug

USA
287 Posts

Posted - 03/03/2006 :  09:04:13 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have been on both sides of this issue, more or less, and understand the feelings on both sides. I developed and had direct oversight of many drug and alcohol programs when I did HR in my previous corporate life. I also have raised two teenagers and worried about drugs (and rightfully so I might add).

As a parent, I would have welcomed the high school my children attended drug testing them on a regular basis. I would even have given my permission at that time. Raising teenagers is a scarey tough thing and I think most parents would agree with me, given the risk to their children's lives.

HOWEVER, we have to look at the greater issue here - civil liberities. If we begin to allow drug testing without cause, what comes next? I am concerned that in the interest of preventing drug use, we are advocating - indirectly - a police state. Is that what we want??

I wholely agree with an employer's right to administer a drug and alchol program, as long as it is done properly. Properly done means every single employee is treated equally and are subject to the same testing procedures. Privacy is protected and laws are followed. A job is not a right, it is a privilege, therefore if the employer requires that you participate in a drug testing program - you have a choice - you don't have to work there. A high school education, on the other hand, is guaranteed to each citizen of the United States and children are required to attend (until they are 16 anyway).

If I were raising teenagers today, I might drug test them myself. In return for the privilege of having and driving a car, say, they would have to agree to stay drug and alcohol free. If they made the choice not to take random drug tests, I'd not let them drive, have allowance, etc. etc. I know this brings up all kind of "trust" issues between parent and child, which is another tough argument.

Our civil liberities are a precious gift that men and women have given their lives to protect and defend. We should, at all costs, protect and cherish them.

DoodleBugGo to Top of Page

daughterofconfederate

USA
29728 Posts

Posted - 03/03/2006 :  11:34:26 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
There are 12 yr olds carrying around pot and pills. Im talking Zanex and Loratabs and one that is called Oxycodine.. I am more than happy for them to nip this in the bud now rather than see the kids die or even go to prison later on in life because they coulda have learned.. The it starts in the home is not an example here to me... not when they get the drugs from home to bring and not when the parents are to busy wrapped up in o my kid dont do no wrong...

The drugs are worse than you know. Can anyone here tell us how many drug raids there are within one weeks time here? How many arrest are made..

If we dont enforce and discapline (sp), how will they know..

As for costing tax payers, we are gonna pay out anyways... their inmate time, or by be it having to hire more dogs, more patrol.. and letting the root grow into a bush.

Where there is hatred, let me sow love. Where there is injury, pardon. Where there is doubt, faith.

Saint Francis of Assisi
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mad4martinis

USA
13730 Posts

Posted - 03/03/2006 :  11:58:52 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Maybe I should go investigate the ones that have the Oxycodiene & take it away from them!! I call that stuff marshmellow fluff!!
(took it when my back was out last year) I'm just kidding, okay?!!!

I think it's the parents responsibility, but I've seen some parents who seriouslly lack that & they themselves are on the drugs.

Shaken, dirty, 4 Olives.

Edited by - mad4martinis on 03/03/2006 11:59:18 AMGo to Top of Page

Cherry Blossom

USA
18932 Posts

Posted - 03/03/2006 :  12:08:45 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I agree with Doc about the fact we are going to pay it anyways.

We will pay it at probation facilities, court fees, jail time, etc.

I'd be glad if someone cared enough to make sure the kids my child associates with is clean and has nothing on him or her.

Cherry Blossom
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daughterofconfederate

USA
29728 Posts

Posted - 03/03/2006 :  12:20:43 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Cherry, one of the emts said that those drug dogs alone are close to 10 grand a peice.

Where there is hatred, let me sow love. Where there is injury, pardon. Where there is doubt, faith.

Saint Francis of Assisi
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gunnerMark19

USA
62 Posts

Posted - 03/03/2006 :  12:34:46 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Those are all excellent points that you make Mountain Thinker. You would think, that before this type of proposal was made public, the powers that be would have done a little research and checked to see if this had already been tried in various courts.

The way it reads it sounds as if, if you want to have drugs on you then don't drive your own vehicle.

You can't single out a group of individuals like that. Even in the military drug testing was done on a random basis. ie.. all SSN's ending in 9(unless there was probable cause), or everyone in the company was tested.

I agree that the legal battles will keep this from ever being effective.

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topaz

USA
3621 Posts

Posted - 03/03/2006 :  12:53:03 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Do they still bring the K-9 Unit in and do random drug searches inside the schools and on school grounds?

God brings men into deep waters not to drown them, but to cleanse them.
(John Hill Aughey,Presbyterian Pastor,1828-1911)

~*Topaz*~Go to Top of Page

mad4martinis

USA
13730 Posts

Posted - 03/03/2006 :  1:13:15 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Oh yeah! I saw them a couple of months ago going into the "naughty kid" school.

Shaken, dirty, 4 Olives.Go to Top of Page

Social change

USA
274 Posts

Posted - 03/03/2006 :  2:45:28 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The cost of K-9 drug sniffing dogs, extra police. probation authorities,detention centers, drug testing facilities and the cost to taxpayers will be a mere pittance to what will have to be paid out in lawsuits against the county and school board in wrongful search and seizure legal awards. lf l were on the school board and this was enacted in Union County, l would run not walk to the office and resign, because l would not want the ACLU to file suit against the School Board and pierce the veil of public servant immunity, which can and will be done. That way they can sue everybody, attach everyones' assets and get more money. This is a dangerous precedent and should be stopped now, because it is unconstitutional, both State and Federally.

My thoughts

Social changeGo to Top of Page

CaseyDoodleBug

USA
287 Posts

Posted - 03/03/2006 :  3:09:20 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I do not believe this can be considered a "money" issue.

First, if student-athletes are the only ones being test, they'll just drop out of sports with another excuse. That solves their problem.

Second, look at this scenario - your kid drives to school and is pulled for a random drug test. A false positive comes back, these are quite common - about 10% come back as false positives and have to be followed up. He is contacted to re-test. Now, everyone in the school hears about it and assumes whatever they are going to assume. Where does that leave your kid, his friends and their parents? If you heard that one of your kids friends "may have" tested positive for drug use, how would you handle it?

Next, let's say your kid is sick. Maybe has a chronic health problem that needs to be treated with medication, which he takes regularly. He doesn't want everyone at school knowing about it. He HAS to disclose it on a questionairre prior to drug screening or it will show up. Someone sees the form and the whole school knows about it. What then???

I know there are drugs in high schools, believe me. But you ain't seen nothing until your kid goes to college. What happens then? You can bet colleges aren't going to risk such a program because students will just go elsewhere.

At then end of the day, students have to learn to deal with peer pressure and parents have to remember that really good kids make really stupid decisions. A drug testing program is not going to change that.

While there are alot of positives to testing kids regularly for drug use, I think there are too many negatives when we start the process of giving away civil liberties - especially when they belong to our children. If we don't respect and fight for their rights as citizens, who will?

DoodleBugGo to Top of Page

Social change

USA
274 Posts

Posted - 03/03/2006 :  3:17:24 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Doodle Bug, you are so right. Drugs have been around since the dawn of time and will be in my lifetime. Let me tell you a atory--way back in 1955 l entered college to play football. As part of the ritual, we all had to submit to a physical. with all the test. l have always had asthma and one of my medication( no longer sold) was Mudrane. Mudrane makes a walking zombie out of you, but you can breathe. l failed the test and almost had to leave the team because of the medicene that was legally prescribed for me. So, This whole subject has far reaching implications that effect our kids for the rest of their lives.

Just my thoughts Social ChangeGo to Top of Page

ShadowMan

USA
4158 Posts

Posted - 03/03/2006 :  3:31:49 PM  Show Profile  Visit ShadowMan's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I do not support drug testing in this manner. Like Mountain Thinker, I believe this discourages the concept of "innocent until proven guilty", and encourages increasing encroachment against privacy and individual rights.

It is not, however, unconstitutional if directed towards students who sign up for extracuricular activities or extra privileges, presumably because the enrollment form contains language specifically allowing the school system to perform drug testing.

It is still unconstitutional to test other students though because they haven't surrended any of their privacy rights.

It's interesting to note that President Bush's 2007 budget added 3.5 million dollars to the existing Department of Education drug testing grants of 6.5 million dollars.

The White House has two publications concerning the program:
"What You Need to Know About Drug Testing in Schools" and
"What You Need to Know about Starting a Student Drug-Testing Program"
The latter, I assume, is the game plan that our own BoE is following.

Three sites worthy of reviewing
Drug Testing Programs currently going on: http://www.nfhs.org/scriptcontent/va_Custom/vimdisplays/contentpagedisplay.cfm?content_id=236

Pro drug testing policy: http://www.dfaf.org/studentdrugtesting/
Against drug testing policy: http://www.drugtestingfails.org/


Shadow

This is my kirttimukha

Edited by - ShadowMan on 03/03/2006 3:33:20 PMGo to Top of Page

nativelady

USA
11126 Posts

Posted - 03/03/2006 :  4:36:46 PM  Show Profile  Visit nativelady's Homepage  Reply with Quote
IF the student is in need of a drug test then it should be done legally. Legally would be ONLY if the kid was guilty of it. Once again Innocent until Proven Guilty.

No, I wouldn't be very happy with someone pulling my child out of class or anywhere else to do drug testing UNLESS they had a propable cause. Probable meaning "caught with substance" or "in the act of an unknown" substance. But I am going to say this and will probably get kicked for it. But Are our teachers tested for drugs in the school system? The last I heard ...No! And I know for SURE a few that would of been gone a long time ago.

This starts at home, if you can't control them at home, then forget it at school. If you're having problems with them now in their elementary years, You best get on guard now! The teachers can't raise our children. The school officials can't teach them the good family morals that we as parents are suppose to teach. But I will go as far as to say, that, Setting an example as a parent for your child speaks SO MUCH LOUDER than words we talk. Ask any teenager what they remember most, your words or your actions? Always your actions! I've reaped my sown mistakes and choices but I will always be the type of parent that my kids can turn to regardless of the situation. Will I always say their right? No! Because I am the first to say mine do wrong when they do. But I am also the first to give an example of what I done in my past that might make them feel some what more "not so black sheep" and then we deal with the issue.

Parents are going to have to stop letting the teachers be the "Parental Guardians" of their kids. It begins at home. And in my theory, also in Church. A family that prayers together stays together. Doesn't mean it's all going to be glitter and gold but love builds that bridge!

~Me crazy? Nah, just three teenagers, get back with me in the year 2010, we'll discuss it then.~Go to Top of Page

coosa creek

USA
39313 Posts

Posted - 03/03/2006 :  4:50:54 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have to agree with Native, Shadow and Social Change.

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puddin pop

USA
4628 Posts

Posted - 03/03/2006 :  5:34:58 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
This seems to me to be a personal private matter that parents should take upon themselves to do instead of the school trying to parent again. The problem of course is the parents who are not being responsible for raising their own.

My reality check bouncedGo to Top of Page

coosa creek

USA
39313 Posts

Posted - 03/03/2006 :  5:37:36 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
You are right puddin!

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Cherry Blossom

USA
18932 Posts

Posted - 03/03/2006 :  6:44:06 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It's easy to say it should start at home, but what if it's someone else influencing your child?

My brother was given some, he took it.

I was offered some I did not.

We both knew better.

Someone else asked us. We did not ask them.

Cherry Blossom
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ShadowMan

USA
4158 Posts

Posted - 03/03/2006 :  6:54:14 PM  Show Profile  Visit ShadowMan's Homepage  Reply with Quote
So you discuss it with your children and help them understand what the consequences - physical, social, academic, whatever - are in saying "yes", versus what the consequences are in saying "no".

Then it shouldn't matter who confronts them - they're approaching it with knowledge and foreknowledge. If detected that they're taking illegal drugs, then the parents have to ensure that there are negative consequences.

The difference is it is the parents doing the parenting, not the schools.


Shadow

This is my kirttimukhaGo to Top of Page

CaseyDoodleBug

USA
287 Posts

Posted - 03/03/2006 :  7:25:37 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I don't disagree with Cherry. No matter what a parent does at home, it does not insure that kids won't try drugs. Really good kids make really stupid mistakes. My oldest son was in rehab before he left college.

We did everything we could to parent our children so that they would know the dangers of drugs. He was a great kid who graduated in the top 10% of his class, was class president, on and on (Hey - I'm his Mom, I have to tell you the good things he did ) He knew right from wrong. We raised him in a solid Christian home. In college, he started drinking heavily and doing drugs. He was a great kid that bad really bad decisions. He checked himself into rehab and has been sober since - three years ago. He's working, attending AA, a sponsor to several members and doing GREAT and I love him more than I can tell you. I loved him when he was a little pain in my *%# and fighting a drug and drinking habit, just didn't like him very much. He is now a great adult who has learned to make better choices and live sober. The guilt of his problems almost ate me alive (I'm a mother - guilt is guilt), until a dear friend, who happens to be a high school counselor told me the sentence I keep using over and over - really good kids make really horrible decisions.

The moral of my long story is this - you can't stop your child from making bad decisions and neither can drug testing at school. You do the best you can, pray alot, and know what symptoms to look for with drug and alcohol abuse.

DoodleBugGo to Top of Page

daughterofconfederate

USA
29728 Posts

Posted - 03/03/2006 :  7:30:22 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Now, Im asking in a very confused look on my face shows this.. so why is it a bad thing for kids to be drug tested at school to insure that the children are sober and how do we deal with kids who do offer at school and have the means to bring it to school? What do yall suggest there because now I AM SOOOO CONFUSED. I am sorry. I am blonde too.

Where there is hatred, let me sow love. Where there is injury, pardon. Where there is doubt, faith.

Saint Francis of Assisi
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Cherry Blossom

USA
18932 Posts

Posted - 03/03/2006 :  7:36:29 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
My brother and I were both raised in the same home. We were raised right by two responsible parents. I said no when asked, he did not. He held onto his tendencies throughout his life.

He was highly successful and a wonderful, smart person, but once exposed he did not stop.

Some person gave my brother something that changed his life forever.

It's not a parent's fault, but the person who offered that crap to my brother.

Cherry Blossom
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daughterofconfederate

USA
29728 Posts

Posted - 03/03/2006 :  7:37:44 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
AND IN NOOO WAY AM I BEING SMART ELICKY. IM A CONSERNED MOTHER.. I know when I was in middle school it was suppposed to be "cool" to drink and go to parties with older boyfriends.. not really butt....
and my girls were offered some of this gals grandmaws heart pills... now some may think this pill or that ones like candy but everyones body is sensitive to this or that and had my youngest who is skinny like Olive oil had taken that ,.... who knows...
it scares me yall. to death.


Where there is hatred, let me sow love. Where there is injury, pardon. Where there is doubt, faith.

Saint Francis of Assisi
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